He is very good. I think being a never-JW brings an advantage to the table. Ex-JWs - esp. born-ins - can sometimes miss certain disturbing things about JW culture simply because they have been desensitized by long exposure to it, or, as in the case of born-ins, it's all they've known all their life and so it may not strike them as odd. But a never-JW is more sensitive to all the craziness of JW culture because he was never acclimatized to the craziness.
Island Man
JoinedPosts by Island Man
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Arguably the best debunker on YouTube
by Terry inthis fellow's channel is called watchtower examination.. he is clear, reasonable, thoughtful--but best of all--his teaching method with visuals is perfection!.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukcep7v1i1o.
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Have you been J-SNUBBED? HOW RUDE!
by sparrowdown ini got to thinking the other day about how the wt uses loaded language.
and spin to give thinly veiled credence and so-called respectability to their policies.. but why not call a spade a spade.
why not identify the true nature of a policy,.
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Island Man
"After the song, you may wish to remain standing for a few announcements." = just a polite way of telling you that you should remain standing for the announcements. There are other examples where commands are issued with the word may to make therm appear not to be commands.
Kingdom hall = JW church
Governing Body/Faithful and Discreet Slave = JW clergy, JW leaders.
"Our literature is without charge, but we accept contributions toward the worldwide work" = "I'm psychologically hinting to you that you should give me money for the magazines because I can't outright ask you for money for the magazines."
spirit directed = We're not outright saying that we're inspired (because then we'd be accused of being false prophets) but we want you to get the impression that we are inspired and treat our instructions accordingly.
Bible study (the person) = A living trophy for the publisher to show off at the kingdom hall.
Pioneering = The seeking of prominence and elitism disguised as doing more for Jehovah.
Bible study = Study of Watchtower doctrine in Watchtower literature with bible verses quoted and cited (often out of context) to prooftext Watchtower doctrine.
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I have a TASK for you to perform. Come on--it will be FUN!
by Terry inlook up in the right-hand corner of this page.. find where it says welcome (name).. did you locate that?.
now click on your name and observe the new page loading takes you to a top blue bar with a menu.. it should read:.
active topics search members topics started .
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Are you an "out of the closet" atheist?
by rebel8 ini'm atheist and not ashamed of it.
however, it is so politically incorrect, especially where i live.
i have a legitimate concern that being out of the closet too much will hurt my career or neighborly relations--i know for a fact it probably would.. i'm really cautious about who i tell.. how about you?
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Island Man
"I'm atheist and not ashamed of it. However, it is so politically incorrect, especially where I live. I have a legitimate concern that being out of the closet too much will hurt my career or neighborly relations--I know for a fact it probably would.
I'm really cautious about who I tell."
I'm just like you rebel8.
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The latest Zalkin press conference on a new pedophile case against Watchtower
by Island Man inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwffgrqgemc.
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Island Man
When you listen to what Zalkin says around the 23 minute mark it becomes obvious why Watchtower is now officially making COs fully responsible for the appointment of elders. It clearly appears to be Watchtower trying to escape legal culpability for the actions of elders. How long do you think it will be before Watchtower officially stops giving the elders policy directives in print and saying that would be the responisibility of the COs? I predict that will a future move to further avoid legal culpability for the policies the elders are told to follow.
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The latest Zalkin press conference on a new pedophile case against Watchtower
by Island Man inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwffgrqgemc.
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Matthew 24:36-37
by lambsbottom inmatthew 24: 36 concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.
37 for just as the days of noah were, so the presence (parousia) of the son of man will be.. i had always thought jws took 36 as meaning christ's coming at armageddon (erchomai), after the 1914 presence (parousia).
however, the greek word in 37 is parousia.
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Island Man
Yes, Jesus was actually talking about the start of his parousia. Contrary to Watchtower's century long, invisible presence claim, Jesus' parousia starts with his final coming - not with a century of inivisible heavenly rule.
Note also, that Jesus was actually using the flood of Noah's day to make the point about his parousia coming at an unknown time. Watchtower inaccurately translates Matthew 24:39 as "and they took no note until the flood came ...". But the greek text doesn't say this. It actually says "and they did not know until the flood came...". Jesus was really saying the flood of Noah's day came at an unexpected time (because they too did not know what day it was coming) so they went about normal activities of life - eating, drinking, marrying, etc - up until the day of the flood. Notice how Jesus continues this point of being caught doing normal day-to-day activities in verse 40 where he says that his presence will catch some grinding at the mill and working in the field. So the whole point of Jesus' comparison with the days of Noah was to make the point about the sudden, unexpected nature of the timing of his presence, such that people will continue to be doing normal life activities up until the day he comes. When you logically follow the writers' flow of thought from verse 36 to verse 42 with an accurate translation and an open mind free of Watchtower bias, this becomes obvious.
The Watchtower is playing a game of linguistic technicalities with the word parousia trying to say it's different from Jesus final coming at armageddon. But really, Jesus final coming is what marks the start of his parousia. This is why Jesus uses the two terms interchangeably at Matthew 24:36-42. His presence starts with his coming so the technical difference in meaning between parousia and coming is irrelevant in the eschatological context that Jesus is speaking. Besides it's basic common sense that a person has to first come in order to be present. But Watchtower foolishes teahes the illogical concept that Jesus is present before he comes. I think they're confusing Jesus presence and coming with another kind of presence and coming, if you know what I mean. LOL.
There are other scriptures throughout the NT that imply that the presence starts with christ's final coming. 2 Peter 3:9 is one. Peter responds to the ridiculers asking "where is the promised presence" by saying that God is not slow respecting his promise (the promised presence) but is patient because he does not desire any to be destroyed, but desires all to attain to repentance. Do you see the implication of this verse? It implies that when the presence starts there would not be any more time left for any to repent. Therefore the presence starts with Jesus coming to destroy the wicked. But according to JWs 2 Peter 3:9 has to be a lie, because people have had a whole century of opportunity to repent after the presence started in 1914. See how screwed up JW eschatology really is? Note also that according to JW teaching, the ridiculers mentioned in 2 Peter 3:4 are actually living during the presence while asking where is the presence - because they're living in the last days which JWs say, started with the start of christ's presence. But Peter - and most JWs - seem to be completely oblivious to this irony.
Another scripture that implies a climactic start to christ's presence is James 5:7 - pay attention to the use of the word until in that verse. It clearly implies that christians no longer need to exercise patience once christ's presence starts as they will at that time be taken out of this trialsome world and receive their promised heavenly reward. But according to JW teaching, a christian who was alive at the start of christ's presence would have to continue exercising patience his whole life. This essentially invalidates the encouragement of James 5:7
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So, are you thinking of coming back?
by kairos inthat's a crazy question.. they really mean, "do you regret your decesion to leave".. ---.
it's just an ice breaker to become nosy into one's personal life.. ---.
btw, last time i was asked this, no, everytime i'm asked this i reply with: "i'm never coming back".. they seem to hear that.. .
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Island Man
My reply would be: "Hell no! What do you take me for, a masochist? Besides, Revelation says: 'get out of her, my people'! It doesn't say anything about returning to her, does it?"
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Excusing the JW Child Abuse Scandals.
by Phizzy inmy question is prompted by a post of terry's on his own thread about a parable for jw's.
in that post terry shows how the standard jw response to any report of sex abuse within the borg is to use the "no true scotsman" fallacy.. i.e "he was not a real jw".. my question is for some time in the future, when the true, horrendous, extent of abuse within the borg is public knowledge, and the cognitive dissonance grows for jw's about this being endemic in "god's organization" for so long, how will they excuse it, or explain it, then ?.
how will they push away the obvious conclusion that jehovah must have approved of this going on, or he would have rectified it, not left it to the courts to pick up the broken pieces years later ?.
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Island Man
A case could be made that the organization is not applying the 2-witness rule properly. A case can be made that JWs are following it by the letter but they are ignoring the deeper principle behind it.
In bible times, there weren't trained police investigators and forensic scientists so the testimony of eyewitnesses was regarded as the strongest kind of evidence. So the underlying principle behind the two witness rule is that a person should not be charged without there being any corroborating evidence to back up the allegation against him.
In modern times we have trained police investigators and forensic scientists who can get at the truth of a matter without having to rely solely on eyewitness testimony. So applying the two witness rule in modern times should mean that any allegations of child abuse should be immediately reported to the police for their investigation and the findings of such a police or forensic investigation should be sufficient to serve in the role of a second witness to act judicially against the offender or to let the matter rest if the investigation can't prove it.
Therefore a case can be made that the JWs are behaving like the pharisees, following the letter of law but ignoring the deeper principle, and in the process they're bringing reproach on Jehovah by insinuating they have no choice but to follow it that way resulting in repeated abuse of innocent children in the name of obeying God. There are always potentially 2 witnesses - if the JWs immediately report every allegation to the police for them to investigate. But the JWs have in the past decided to not opt to listen to the second witness that a police investigation would provide by their deliberate refusal to report to the police.
The GB is a bunch of wicked pharisees who whitewash their ivory tower with the tears of innocent children.
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What are the Core Teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by cultBgone inrecently someone asked me to define what core teachings have such a hold on jdubs that they have trouble breaking free.
trying to single out the driving force that keeps them in the borg, this is what popped into my head:.
obviously there are lots and lots of wacky things the jdubs teach/believe/pretend to believe.
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Island Man
The Core teachings that have a hold on JWs:
~ Only JWs have the true religion.
You're not really a christian if you're not a JW. It is assumed that you're in a false religion if you're not a JW. Having an approved relationship with God necessitates being a JW. To leave the JW religion is equated with leaving God. It does not matter how scriptural your religious beliefs are. It does not matter how clean your life is. As long as you're not a JW it is assumed that you're in need of "The Truth". JWs are it and everyone else is s#it! If you're not a JW you have no valid hope of surviving Armageddon. Buying into this crap causes you to be enslaved to the JW religion. You can see the many errors in the relgion and think to yourself: "where else am I to go? Who else has the truth? I'm going to stay and 'wait on Jehovah'"
~ Christ's presence started invisibly in 1914.
This is perhaps the teaching that is most unique or peculiar to JWs. The outbreak of WWI in 1914 gives JWs teh false impression that they accurately predicted the date of 1914. WWI serves as a false confirmation of an otherwise kooky doctrine. 1914 is used as the starting point of christ's presence and the last days. Coupled with the "this generation" teaching it serves to stir up fear of the imminence of the end. Wow! It's been a whole century since the last days begun. "'This generation' is well along in years - the end must be so, so, so close now! Now is not the time to slow down in the preaching work or stop serving Jehovah! I don't want to be found outside the organization and the end come suddently and catch me by surprise!"
~ The JW organization is God's spirit directed organization.
This teaching is used to imbue the organization with divine authority so that all JWs will submit to its teachings and organizational direction with the same unconditional obedience and loyalty that one is supposed to give to God himself. The direction coming from the organization is often spoken of as coming from Jehovah. To disobey the organization is to disobey Jehovah. To leave the organization is to leave Jehovah. Who would dare to spurn almight God himself?
~ The leadership of the JW organization was appointed as the faithful and discreet slave by Christ.
This teaching serves a similar function as the preceding one - it is used to imbue the Governing Body with exclusive divine authority. Disobey the Governing Body and it's as if you're disobeying Jesus and Jehovah. Refuse to accept a teaching printed in the literatue and its as if you're refusing to comply with the divine arrangement to be fed with food at the proper time by the 'faithful and discreet slave'. "The reason I don't understand this new teaching is that I just need to study the Watchtower publications more. I have not been feeding enough on the food provided by the faithful and discreet slave so my powers of spiritual discernment have gotten a little dull. It's all my fault - not that the teaching is wrong. And even if it were it would be no reason to not loyally go along with the divinely constituted 'faithful and discreet slave' arrangement - Jehovah would offer clarification in time if needed."
~ JWs are to be no part of the world.
JWs are encouraged to loathe the world. Non-JWs are religous slurred with the term "worldly". If you are not a JW then by default you are "worldy" and "bad association" to be avoided as much as is practically possible. JWs are not to express any political opinions or get involved in any social issues or controversies of the world. If slavery were still legal, JWs would not be allowed to campaign against it! JWs are not to follow fashion trends or fads - even if the fashion is not inherently immodest in and of itself. Being different to everyone else is seen as a noble end in and of itself. They refuse to use the religous jargon of other denominations - "grace", "bishop", "church", etc are words they refuse to use in relation to their own religion. They even refuse to observe holidays that do not have any religious or pagan origins. The slightest hint of historical assocation with pagan practices - however vague and however speculative - is used as an excuse to refrain from otherwise perfectly innocuous activities. They look for any and every excuse to be different by refraining from activities engaged in by the majority. Being no part of the world is taken to extreme heights of self-righteousness not seen since the time of the pharisees. All of this serves to imbue the JW with a sense of self-righteous separateness from everyone else and allows them to lump everyone else in the same derogatory category of "the world".
~ Preaching house to house is a must for all christians that are able to.
"Who else is doing the preaching work?" When a JW asks this question, know that he's referring specifically to preaching from house to house. They see this specific method of preaching as being a must for all true christians. Their feeling is, if you're not doing this specific method of preaching then you're not fulfilling the commision to preach. They make the unsubstantiated assertion that Jesus and the apostles preached from house to house. Strangely, they can't find a single scripture with a detailed description of Jesus or any of this apostles systematically going from door to door preaching to strangers (Acts 20:20 and Acts 5:42 are not conclusive, as they could just as easily be a reference to early congregation meetings which were held in the houses of various believers.). Instead the bible is filled with fairly detailed accounts of public preaching. John 18:20 even quotes Jesus himself as saying that he always preached publicly! But the deluded JW thinks to himself that JWs must be the true religion because they alone are going from house to house.